Not likely but I'm thinking not impossible either since it takes time to get through the three grinds and mixing. I'll monitor the meat temp next time too.
@vvsarpsjr Crucial, at a certain temp proteins wont extract, we normally don't get into that as it is well into the danger zone, I think it is around 50° that it stops extracting and you don't want to be in that range ever with raw meat. Could it have been that warm?
Thanks Jonathon and JoeB, it was [probably both of what you all suggested. For sure something happened with the bind since fat came out and after the final 3rd grind it did seem to look more fatty than I was expected. It was the first time I used pork fat alone with venison. I'll use pork butt next time. The mixer is small and although it did seem to end up as a sticky paste when completed, I do stop it occasionally and pull the meat off the paddle because it does look like it gets wound around the paddle axel without at lot of mixing action. How critical is meat temperature during the grinding/mixing process to keep the bind? I had read elsewhere that the hot dog meat temperature needs to stay below 40 degrees the whole time for the emulsification to not break. Is that true? Would seem difficult to accomplish in the home setting.
@vvsarpsjr If your going to use pork fat not pork butt i would ratio 4lbs to 1lb. Pork butt ratio 3.5lbs-1.5lbs. If you have a fatty issue i would think there was too much fat in the batter, my thoughts. Could have lost the emulsified state, batter with water / fat separation, but my thought is too much fat to meat .
@vvsarpsjr It is unlikely that at 10 minutes you overmixed it. The fact that you had some fat between the casing and the meat means something happened with your bind. The 5 lb batch, what mixer did you use? It is possible that it just wrapped around the axle and didn't get worked by the paddles? If you used the 20 lb then I doubt it this was your problem.
Did you use a binder? Did you grind 3 times? Hot dogs are made with either a bowl chopper or an emulsion plate to fully breakdown the protein. If you don't have a chopper or an emulsion plate for your grinder (not really available for retail) then a 3rd grind with your 1/8" plate is probably your best bet.
@vvsarpsjr when I did hot dogs, I did 50% venison/ 50% 73/27 beef. They turned out great. I too noticed they didnt have a strong hot dog taste, but everyone loved them.
Well I can only say When I do game I’ll do 60-40 pork butt. Sometimes 50-50. Never had a problem with that ratio. Outside of the greasy issue. How did it taste. I’ll add just fat but not often if my butt is a little lean. Pork is normally 30% fat. Could be a fat resource issue. Joe
Hi Joe B - recipe was 3.5 lb venison, 1.5 lb pork fat, ground 3 times, first through 3/8", second and third through 1/8"; 4.8 oz Excalibur Hot Dog Seasoning, 1.2 oz sure gel binder, 0.2 oz Sure Cure, 6 oz water.
Jonathan - made first batch of hot dogs, 3.5 lbs venison, 1.5 lbs pork fat; used the above recipe for 5lbs, no cheese, and no smoked meat stabilizer (kept overnight in refrigerator then smoked the next day using the above schedule). Noticed there was a little solidified fat between the hot dogs and celluose casing but it wasn't a lot. Tasted more like a brat than a hot dog but it was the consistency that was most un-hot dog like. It was softer and not as rubbery/flexible as a hot dog. I did use a meat mixer (about 10 min) and it was very tacky when completed and added about 6 oz of water. Any idea of what I did wrong or how to make them a better consistency. Too much fat? Mixed for too long? Thanks.
Jonathan - thank you for the feedback. I was hoping to do all turkey to try to make it a little more healthy. You are correct that I would like to smoke these. Unless you have additional thoughts, I will use the recipe above (which includes the sure gel) and see how it goes. Will do a small batch in the event it is too dry and becomes food for the dog.
@mbroos What is your fat content going to be? My best recommendation would be to add pork fat and then use just sure gel, that would give you the best finished product. Aside from the cold phos and carrot fiber would work but carrot fiber is going to be better in a fresh product and I am assuming you want to smoke these? Honestly, you might still be better off just using sure gel, it already has some phosphate in it though so don't use that and cold phosphate together, that could make it taste like soap.
So, add 25% pork fat and use sure gel, or add cold phosphate and carrot fiber. Either will work but the pork fat and sure gel will be a better overall product
Would like to make turkey hot dogs and saw your video on turkey brats. Would you recommend adding carrot fiber and cold phosphates to the hot dogs as you did the turkey brats? Anything else you would recommend when making turkey dogs? Thank you for your thoughts.
@mbroos I think a few hours is too long, you run the risk of drying out the outside of the sausage and then it won't be able to pass heat into the center of the sausage. I'd say start at 120ish in your dehydrator for 30 minutes, that will begin to condition the temp of the meat and will dry the outside a little but not too much. Then, I would move to the oven and i would seriously consider finishing it up in water like a lot of users here do. For more information on that check out these two articles/videos
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1099/cured-sausage-205-advanced-thermal-processing/
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1108/cured-sausage-206-advanced-cured-sausage-processing
@jbh222 That is going to depend on your oven a little. How low will it start? How hot will your dehydrator get? You might be best served starting off in the dehydrator and then moving to the oven, if you're dehydrator starts as low as 120 (which shouldn't be a problem) putting them in there 1st and then moving them to the oven for cooking might be your best bet.
What you will have to deal with here is case hardening in the dehydrator. You want the outside of the casing to be dry(ish) to let the smoke adhere, you don't want to remove all of the moisture from the edge of the sausage though, if that happens you might not be able to pass heat efficiently into the middle of the snack stick.
Will be making summer sausage next weekend. My pellet smoker does not go below 150. Thoughts on using a dehydrator for a few hours and then transferring to smoker to smoke and finish the cooking? I can adjust the temp on my dehydrator. Thanks for thoughts.
@jbh222 Can't help you with the oven or dehydrator question. However to scale the recipe down divide the ingredient quantities by 25 to get the amount needed for one pound of meat, then multiple by the amount of meat you are using.
Can you use this recipe and make it in either the oven or in a dehydrator? How would you alter the recipe? Can this recipe also be made in a smaller batch and how would you do that?
@mbroos it basically comes down to the texture of the final product.
Austin - you indicate we do not want protein extraction when making brats. Can you explain why? I am making deer brats (70/30 pork) and thought protein extraction would allow better binding and moisture retention. Thanks for your thoughts.
@srsmith123 So, we had luck propping our oven door open once and could get the top rack to stabilize at 120, which was 30 degrees cooler than the lowest setting that oven will do. That is what I would recommend but failing that then yes, your plan sounds about the only thing you can do. Adding a water pan will add some humidity but not a lot, try adding some large automotive sponges to the water pan to try to raise the humidity even more in there.
Some more info:
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1099/cured-sausage-205-advanced-thermal-processing
https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/1108/cured-sausage-206-advanced-cured-sausage-processing
Any tips to making this summer sausage in my home oven? Lowest setting on oven is 170 degrees. My thought is to let it go at 170 degrees for about 3 hours, see how it's doing and if needed bump it up to 175 degrees until internal temp of 160 degrees is reached? Should I also add pan of water to oven to control humidity? All suggestions are welcome.
@brogers I'll let someone else give their opinion and I will just deliver the company line, without a way to measure water activity and pH they should be vacuum sealed and left defrosted for no more than 5 days. Now, that is the company line for safety, in reality it will be different.
@George-T Sadly, yes, they probably sat for numerous hours between 40-140 degrees making them the perfect breeding ground for somenasty stuff.
After vacuum sealing, what kind of lifespan are we looking at when using citric acid in the mix? If the steps are followed precisely, how many days in the fridge can I expect before possible spoilage? I know it will vary, but are we talking roughly a week, or roughly a month?
Once taken out of the fridge, would it be safe to eat say 12-24 hrs later?
Will I have a hard time getting good results doing this in the oven since I don't have a smoker?
Thanks in advance!!
@Ozgrams It can be but there is some ratio changes that are sometimes needed. For example the jalapeno jerky is 1/2 the size of the jalapeno snack stick seasoning, so that would probably make a rather weak sausage. This is because jerky si designed as a topical. Not all have this ratio though, so there isn't a good rule of thumb, you'll need to do some experimenting.
Question ... can the Jerky seasonings(Sweet Chipotle Jerky Seasoning) be used for sausage and vice versa? Looking for a good Sweet Chipolte sausage mix but don't think I would like the one with green tea.
Why do I need casings? I’ve already shot my deer for the season and the local Processing guy is adding in 20% pork fat to this round I can always add more as needed. Any advice is greatly appreciated
@Barry1967 How much water are you adding? I will see if I can find a different smoke schedule for skinless but I dont remember seeing one. If we did have one I wouod suspect it would be more based around a different drying phase instead of a cooking schedule. Use a binder, add enough water and at least 20% fat should all help avoid it being too hard. It could have also been case hardening. Without a casing, the drying phase might have removed too much moisture from the sticks and created a hard outer layer.
Do you have a suggested thermal process for snack sticks that are not getting put into a casing? Is it different than the process with casings? I hope it is because if I follow the process above they are way to dry and harder than I would like, I have been experimenting with different temps and cook times and am struggling to get the results I want. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Venison with 10 percent pork fat. Next batch with be 20 percent.
So I'm doing my snack stick overflow in the oven and the bottom of the sticks are covered in grease. Does this mean that they're getting out? Temp hasn't gotten over 140 yet
@JerkyIsMySalad I would say yes you should rotate them for 2 reasons. 1 as you say you will have possibly hotter racks at the bottom and cooler on top but also you might end up with sticks with indentation lines in them so rotate them from top to bottom in the smoker but also rotate them on the rack. Now, someone just commented the other day that they did not rotate theirs and they did not get lines or anything in their sticks, I still would. I would recommend adding smoke and humidity after the initial drying stage which with sticks shouldn't take more than 20 minutes.
Good luck!
@Joe-Hell , @PapaSop, @Jonathon or @Austin, I have a question that I hope could get answered before this evening as I am going to make a batch of snack sticks. I have a 30" smoke hollow smoker with 3 racks. If I were to lay the meat sticks on the the racks, should I be rotating the racks? the heat source is on the bottom and I'm afraid that they will be at different temp levels when I finish. My previous batches I have hung from the top rack but it was more work to hang them so I want to try this method. Also, at which stage do you add water for humidity? Thanks in advance
@Doug-Benton If you're using a cure accelerator like Encapsulated Citric Acid (ECA) then you don't need to let them cure overnight. Make sure you wait until the last 60 seconds or so of mixing to add the ECA so as not to break down the encapsulation.
If you aren't using a cure accelerator, then you *need* to hold them overnight to give the cure time to work.
Note, things like Sure Cure and pink salt are cures, not cure accelerators.
Thanks for clearing that up this is my first time making summer sausage. One more question can you stuff the casings let them set in refrigerator overnight then smoke them the next day? Or do they need to smoked immediately after stuffing.
@Doug-Benton What @gChart Says is true, 2 qts mixed in the meat but that's maximum, I generally say 1.5 qt if you are using a binder. It will stuff like a dream with 2 qts but your cook schedule will be longer than it needs to be as the meat cooks off some of that water
@Doug-Benton Mixed in with the meat and spices. You may not want / need a full two quarts, especially depending on the type of binder you're using (assuming you're using one). Check out the recent Meatgistics livestream for Jonathon's explanation: https://youtu.be/y9Ffmd873HY?t=1246 This link starts at the water discussion, but it's worth watching the entire thing.
In the how to make summer sausage the ingredients call for 2 quarts of water is that mixed in with the meat and spices or is it used to cool the sausage down after smoking?
@JerkyIsMySalad 80/20 as long as the 20 is pork fat will be fine, 70/30-80/20 is preference more than anything. I'd recommend that you mix it into your meat and then add the water as you are mixing for a cured product. Not sure if that was you but someone asked this same question during the live stream we just did. You can go to waltonsinc.com/live or our youtube page to watch it.
@Blaker25 Sure gel is a binder and yes I use it when making any cured and smoked sausage or snack sticks. I start off with my dampers wide open for the first 30-60 minutes then I close it down to about half to a little more for the remainder of the cook. The last time I did sticks they were done in about 2.5 hours.
@Jonathon @Austin, Should I mix sure gel with water before adding to meat mixture? That's what I have been doing but it doesn't specify in this recipe.
@AdamCA yes I held them overnight because of the cure. So you would use the sure gel or a binder. Do either of them effect the taste. Also. What’s your dampener set at on the smoker?
@Blaker25 I would definitely recommend using Sure Gel as it is going to help make a better product, it's not mandatory but highly recommended. Did you have any humidity in there, a bowl of water or something to introduce humidity? If not I would definitely try that next time and make sure you don't overload the smoker with too much as it can impede air flow. The first time I made Summer Sausage it took forever because I didn't have any humidity and I kept opening the smoker to check the temp not thinking that every time I did that I was letting all the heat out so if you don't have a wireless thermometer I suggest getting one. You didn't mention if you held the sticks overnight after stuffing or if you went straight to the smoker but if you are not using a cure accelerator you need to hold them overnight. That won't effect the cook time but just wanted to point that out.
So I did my first batch of snack sticks today. I have a Bradley smoker and I used waltons willies snack sticks. I followed the directions on how to smoke and everything. So I put 10 pounds of snack sticks inside the smoker. This ended up taking 16 hours to reach an internal temp of 152. I didn’t use any gel binder or anything (because I’m new and not sure if I need them yet. Hoping someone could tell me.) not only did it take 16 hours. They shriveled up and don’t look appealing. I also used the smoked collagen casings 19mm. Love the size. But now the casing taste awful which I think might be from being on the smoker for so long. Please help. Want to successfully make snack sticks but really struggling. Also I feel that 16 hours was way to long. When I need to get the rest of the 25 pound batch done. Please tell me what I’m doing wrong.
@BRagland1 So here is some good information that might not be well known, the mm and fraction plates are 2 ways of saying the same thing.
3mm = 1/8
10mm = 3/8
4.5mm = 3/16
5mm = 1/4 (this is a very odd size and you wont see many)
Now, depending on your grinder not all plates will fit. You need to take into account how it locks in, do your plates have 1 or 3 holes around the outside? Is one or two sides shaved off? Also, some commercial style plates are too thick to fit on retail grinders (found that out the hard way with @papasop) but some DO fit. The Weston Pro 22 will take a commercial plate and knife but the #12 and #32 will not. Crazy and I wish it was all more standardized.
@Ode-Tom The 5 series Pitboss at Lowes is $400 and will smoke 20 16oz summer sausage hanging from one rack at the top with s-hooks. Best deal on a smoker you will find anywhere!...It is a verticle smoker with a glass front door and 3 yr waranty!!!!!! My Traeger buddies are JEALOUS!!!!
jbh222 That is going to depend on your oven a little. How low will it start? How hot will your dehydrator get? You might be best served starting off in the dehydrator and then moving to the oven, if you’re dehydrator starts as low as 120 (which shouldn’t be a problem) putting them in there 1st and then moving them to the oven for cooking might be your best bet.
What you will have to deal with here is case hardening in the dehydrator. You want the outside of the casing to be dry(ish) to let the smoke adhere, you don’t want to remove all of the moisture from the edge of the sausage though, if that happens you might not be able to pass heat efficiently into the middle of the snack stick.
@kroc It's not 100% the same BUT [Hickory Smoke Powder](https://www.waltonsinc.com/hickory-smoke-powder) does a great job of replacing the flavor. In fact, there was a while were @austin and I were doing our Will it BBQ videos and we would smoke something and then try that same thing with hickory smoke powder and we often couldn't tell the difference.
Hmmmm smoked ice cream! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ky17U-ClJI
@kroc I'd use that hickory smoke powder. I haven't used it, yet, but it sure does smell both good and authentic.
I know that liquid smoke actually is made from smoke, but it always strikes me as acrid and just "off" for smoke.
Not likely but I’m thinking not impossible either since it takes time to get through the three grinds and mixing. I’ll monitor the meat temp next time too.
Ozgrams It can be but there is some ratio changes that are sometimes needed. For example the jalapeno jerky is 1/2 the size of the jalapeno snack stick seasoning, so that would probably make a rather weak sausage. This is because jerky si designed as a topical. Not all have this ratio though, so there isn’t a good rule of thumb, you’ll need to do some experimenting.
