Best posts made by Jonathon

Mid Summer Bass have been good in Kansas this year on soft plastics.

@Jurae said in Newbie. Just getting started and have questions :
Hello and welcome Jurae! First, good choices on seasonings, the Willies is always a crowd pleaser and I have been itching to try the Onion and Garlic Brat for a while now, so you will have to let me know how that comes out.

Smoking process for Hot Link would be
120° for 30 minutes without smoke
130° for 30 minutes with smoke
140° for 30 minutes with smoke
150° for 30 minutes with smoke
160° for for 15 minutes with smoke
170° until the internal temp of the hot link is 160° without smoke

Cool it down for 20 minutes in an ice bath to bring the internal temperature down and stop the cooking process

For Polish the smoking schedule would be a little easier
120° for 30 minutes with no smoke
145° for 60 minutes
185° until internal temp reaches 160°

Then cool down in an ice bath for 20 minutes.

For carrot fiber you can absolutely use it in a non smoked sausage like a bratwurst, we often do as it gives more volume and I tend to like the texture better as well, I have been using carrot fiber in all my sausage products recently as it is allergen free, inexpensive and does an amazing job at moisture retention.

I have never made Bangers but I do have a recipe from our vendor that I am going to email you, along with a copy of this post.

I hope I answered all your questions and if you have anymore we always try to respond as quickly as possible!

Thank you,

@KnucklHed-BBQ
First of all you are not doing anything wrong. Plenty of people follow similar processes, either because they do not have a mixer or they have a mixer grinder. We recommend mixing separately for a few reasons, one being that as soon as you add seasoning or cure that is going to begin the protein extraction process which can make it more difficult to grind if the product is not very cold. Another reason is some of the seasoning is going get lost in your grinder, not much but some and I find it makes the grinder harder to clean, though doing it your way you don’t have to clean a mixer so it is sort of 6 of one 1/2 dozen of another there!

When making a fresh product like it sounds like you are with bratwurst you want good particle definition, meaning you don’t want much protein extraction so I would recommend that you grind and then mix in your seasoning. You can do this by hand as you are just trying to distribute the seasoning across your meat.

However, I always tell people unless you are experiencing issue with your product don’t change it. If you have found something that gives you a product you are happy with stick with it!

@KnucklHed-BBQ That’s a perfect video, we have a guy here who is good with this method and I just filmed him doing it the other day, we are going to do a post about it but yes you are right, this is a great method if you can master it!

@angler I have a couple of pointers that I think will help you.

The seasoning you are using may or may not have played into it, salt content could have been an issue but with it being a seasoning we don’t carry I just don’t know. This is why we recommend using Excalibur Seasonings, all of the ratios for salt has been correctly calculated already.

A single grind through a 4.5mm (3/16) plate is probably not enough for a snack stick. I’d recommend doing two grinds, the first one through a 3/8th plate and the second through a 1/8th plate. This will make protein extraction during the mixing process much easier.

1 oz of sure cure is enough to cure 25 lb of meat, so unless they are using a different formulation (and they might be, did they send you 1 oz package for a 10 lb batch?) then this would be too much cure for 10 lb of meat.

Stuffing off of a grinder is always going be a little harder than with a stuffer. You made the right decision in investing in one, it will make all future projects much easier.

Adding the citric acid last in mixing is the correct thing to do, it prevents it from breaking down and being released too early into the product. However, putting it back through the grinder, even just to stuff, probably started breaking down the coating and released the citric acid into the meat. You have already fixed this issue though by purchasing a stuffer.

I’d say you are right to look at a mixer as I think this stage is where the majority of your final issues stemmed from. When mixing for a cured sausage product, like snacksticks or summer sausage, you need to mix until you have protein extraction, this allows the meat, fat, water and seasoning to bind together. Mixing times necessary to achieve protein extraction can vary but 4 minutes in a kitchen aid mixer doesn’t seem like it would be enough. Watch this video to see what correct amount of protein extraction looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wStH-RtQUY8. Also you might want to consider adding a binder like Carrot Fiber as that will help everything bind together.

So on to your actual questions! I am willing to bet they were too dry because they “fatted out” which is explained in the above video but basically it means you did not get enough protein extraction so when you cooked them the fat rendered out of the meat. This would also explain the jelly like substance on some of the links.

Smoking snacksticks can take a long time, generally around 5-6 hrs for our process. Starting at 110° seems unnecessarily low to me, check out this post for a better smoking schedule and for more information on making snack sticks https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/182/how-to-make-homemade-snack-sticks-recipe/2

I hope that answered your questions, if anyone else has any other thoughts chime in!

@angler I was glad to be able to help. If you have any questions after watching that video let me know!

@craigw9292 After talking to a few people here we think the best way to get a ham like flavor would be to use a ham cure and use the same seasonings and additives you would for curing a normal ham. I’d recommend you use the Sweeter than Sweet Cure California Ham Spice and Cold Phosphate

You will want to use this in the same ratio as you would for making a whole muscle ham. You will grind, mix and stuff like you did with your bologna and then either let the product sit overnight, or if you used a cure accelerator you can go right to the smokehouse. You will want to use about the same amount of water you would if you were making the same amount of smoked sausage.

Your other option is to inject the cure and additives directly into the whole muscle and then let that sit overnight in a cooler then grind, mix, stuff and smoke like you did for your bologna.

We just don’t think there would be a sausage seasoning that you could add california ham spice too that is going to give you anything approaching a ham taste.

@craigw9292 Since we are still working off of the same usage ratios I would say for each 10 lb of meat you should use 13 oz of water, 0.175 lb (.28 oz) of the country brown sugar, .078 oz of California ham spice and .8 oz of cold phosphate. Again this is for a 10 lb batch so just make sure you correctly adjust for how much meat you are doing. Let us know if you need anything else.

@ksand I’m always happy to help! As for what plates to use I do 3/16" then 1/8" on anything I am going to smoke. There is a few reasons for that, we think it gives a more even product it seems to make protein extraction a little quicker though that might be up for debate. When I am doing Brats I use a 3/8 twice since I want that a little coarser. Like you said though, it is up to what you want really! Happy new year to you and everyone else as well, 2018 is gonna be a lot of fun here!

@ksand Your process and cook cycle sounds good and since you hand mixed your batch and had a clean knife I cannot imagine it was over emulsification. I can say that there would be no scientific reason for the Citric Acid to have been the cause of it though. Hopefully it was a one-time thing, don’t let this get you off of the Encapsulated Citric Acid though, it really is a good thing to use. Just to be clear when you say more of a hotdog consistency you mean it was very uniform and no particle definition right?

The double grinding is going to give you a “better” consistency with a more even product, that is why we recommend grinding twice on products that are going to be smoked. It’s not 100% necessary but in general it will give you the consistency that most people associate with that product.

@ndkoze There is no question you are correct, they can sometimes taste different because of differences in the cook cycle. We don’t have an exact scientific answer for you but this is what we believe. With Patties generally you are cooking faster at a higher temperature and that tends to draw more moisture out, that can do two things. First, it is going to bring more salt to the surface of the meat so you will get more salt with the initial bite, which is what your mouth immediately registers and sticks with you more. Second, the more moisture you remove from the patty the strong the remaining salt taste is going to be.

Let us know if anyone has a differing opinion.

@raider2119 What type of container did you put it in when you smoked it? Did you use a sure cure or a regular salt? I’m going to try this for sure, I actually have some eggs in my fridge here that I had no plans for and didnt know what to do with!

@raider2119 Oh wow, you are going to an entire new level of this! The only advice I would give is to stay with a milder smoke, I’d stick to the fruitwood/pecan side of the spectrum, Hickory or Mesquite might have a little too strong a flavor to them. Just my opinion but I think it is good advice. Make sure you take and post some pics!

@angel4us Prague #2 has both nitrates and nitrites in it whereas sure cure has nitrites but no nitrates in it. The addition of nitrates makes it a better choice for slow or cold curing where as Sure Cure or #1 cure is what you use for things you are going to smoke with heat like snack sticks. Unless you are cold curing something then use Sure Cure.

Adding more cure isn’t going to give you more shelf life. FSIS/USDA regulates the amount of ingoing nitrite into a sausage, and the maximum allowed is 156 ppm, so you would not want to go above this. Our formulations are designed to be within the limits as regulated by the USDA.

Let us know if you need anything else!

@raider2119 I’d say before you go and make something to chill the smoke I’d try it first just with the smoke source as far away as possible and see what happens, if you have problems then try to create something? Unless of course you want to create something, then by all means tinker away!

As for the cure, I would say no, don’t add any sure cure to it. It’s not designed for use with dairy products and I don’t think it is going to give you much protection and it could throw off your process.

Making small batches at first is the right way to go, I imagine this process is going to take some experimenting to get right but when you do I am willing to bet it will be amazing!

@raider2119 First of all, more cookies is always a good thing, especially if you don’t have to bake them! Second our eggs peeled incredibly easily when we smoked them and yes we were very worried about them bursting as that would be a pain to clean up, not sure if we got lucky or just had the smoker dialed in perfectly but we did not end up with any of them bursting.

Once I try this I will let you know how it turned out and thanks for the instructions!

@alchemybullies If you are intending to do patties then I would say that you are better off using the poly tubing as the bags have a gusset at the bottom that would make that a little oblong. We do sell the meat bags by the 100 if you wanted to buy some and check them out and see if they would work for you?

Another option would be the 4.8 in x 22 in Fibrous Boneless Ham Casings and stuffing, freezing and slicing them. You would get a lot more round portion out of this than I would think you would get with the meatbags? This would be fairly cost effective as well as you would get 25 of these casings with an order and each casing is 22" long so they would do a fair amount.

So, if you are going to use the full 2,000 feet then go with the poly tubing, if you don’t want to buy all of this at once then either the meat bags or the fibrous casings would be a decent option!

@angel4us Are you talking about using only ground pork as your meat block or are you saying you won’t be using rice or any vegetables? When we make Boudin we generally forgo the traditional Pork Liver but we do always add rice and sometimes add seafood like shrimp or tilapia as well. We will be having a video come out on our process for this in the coming months. To answer your question you can absolutely use just ground pork, but if you don’t add rice then it is not going to be true boudin.

@angel4us Sorry for the delay, I did not see a response on this. Yes, the rice is mixed into the mince and stuffed. Just a quick note, some people boil the rice first and some other people simply let the rice reconstitute in water for an hour or so. Both ways are correct. If you have already done the Boudin post some pictures of how it came out!

That looks awesome and crawfish would be awesome! I generally dont like liver and I skipped it on the boudin I made, it came out good but you are right for the true taste it “should” be used. Maybe next batch I will try adding some?

@alchemybullies Good questions, first I would say instead of using the poly tubing you can use Ground Beef Bags, these might look flat in the picture but when they are stuffed they look more like the chubs you see at the store and they are already closed at one end. If you want to see what these look like when they are stuffed check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY4rINa_Gmk at the 2:50 mark we are stuffing a bag from a grinder and then at the end you can see the filled bag and I will include a photo of what they look like at the bottom of this post.

If however you are set on using the poly tubing (which is totally fine by the way, lots of commercial processors do this for patties and then freeze and slice them) then you will load it onto the stuffing tube just like you would anything else (use the largest stuffing tube possible) and staple the end that will the bottom first and then after you have stuffed as much as you want into it cut and staple that end.

It will take some guess work on how many inches it takes to get get to your 3/5/10 lb goal and give yourself enough room to staple it at the end. Luckily each one of those rolls is 2,000 feet so you have a lot of material to do the testing on!

@knucklhed-bbq The Hot-Link unit is a good one so you should be pleased with the results. Let me answer in the order you asked. If you want to skip all this just know that you can follow the same process we have written out for hot dogs at this link, it will be very similar (https://meatgistics.waltonsinc.com/topic/180/how-to-make-homemade-hot-dogs-recipe)

For grinding I would say grind all of your beef through a 1/8" plate 3 times and all your pork once through a 3/16" plate.

As for meat mixture it is going to depend on what type you are trying to make as Hot Links are made from different types of meat in different areas. In the south and midwest it would traditionally be an all pork product but in Texas it would be an all beef hot link. Plenty of people make them from a mix though and a 50/50 -50/60 is perfectly fine so you plan for what you are going to use is good. Fat content is generally high in hot links so you should be good here.

I’d still use Carrot Fiber as a binder as it is going to help retain moisture through the smoking process. It holds up to 26 times its weight in water, is inexpensive, allergen free and will add to your final yield. That’s why I like it and add it to most things I make. You don’t have to use it though but if you don’t just make sure you have lots of good protein extraction during the mixing phase.

Water usage is a wide range, with hot links we would tell a commercial processor to use 1 lb of water for every 5 lb of meat as with a hot link you want a texture somewhat similar to a bologna. If you want to use your 1 lb to 10 lb that will certainly work as well though.

Smoking schedule would be 120° for 30 minutes with no smoke - 145° for 30 min with smoke and then 175° until they reach 160° internal temp. If you can’t keep it this low then start as low as your smoker will go and then step it up from there till it gets to 175°.

For curing yes you still need to hold them overnight, the Citric Acid in it is not enough to speed the conversion, you could add some encapsulated citric acid and then go right to the smokehouse if you wanted it to have a tang to it.

After smoking yes put them in an ice bath for about 20 minutes or shower them for the same amount of time, the evaporation energy will cool it at about the same rate as an ice bath.

One tips is to keep your beef and pork separate and then mix your beef, water, cure and seasoning in a mix for about 3 minutes and then add your pork and mix for another 4 minutes. Also make sure your plate and knife are sharp and your meat is cold before you start grinding it, if you start noticing your meat getting mushed then put it back in a cooler/freezer for a bit to cool it back down. A good tip for smoking would be to add a water pan to the bottom of your smoker to keep the humidity up.

I have never pickled them but I did find some documentation that gave a basic formulation for the pickle being 2 lb of water, 2 lb of distilled white vinegar, 2 oz of salt and an optional ingredient of 10 drops of red food coloring.

@hharris We recommend pork fat because it has a creaminess to it that other animals fats really don’t match. For example I can cleary tell the difference in texture and taste when I am making pork brats or snack sticks vs when I have used beef. Part of the taste difference is in how the fat coats your mouth it allows it to linger longer. Also, when you are making a product that you would want particle definition on (salami, pepperoni and some bolonga) the back fat from a hog is nice and firm and displays really nicely. Now, some people object to pork for either health or religious reasons so adding beef fat can and very often is substituted!

Don’t rinse, or soak your collagen just take it right out of the package, load it onto your stuffing horn and you are good to go!

Let us know if you have any other questions!

If I get a veto on anything then I want to use it NOW, so you are saying the consistency can get actually get WORSE!!!

Yeah, i’ve seen people do it both ways on protein extraction and it makes sense that more extraction would result in a more consistent bite and chew throughout, thanks for the information!

@kunze7

@Gary-T Nop, you did not miss it! Once we draw the winner (usually in the first few days) we attempt to contact them via email. Once they have responded we will then add the winning entry to the bottom of https://www.waltonsinc.com/win.

@Gary-T Since I only use premixed seasonings (and that’s honestly what I would recommend you do as well) I might not be the best person to answer this question. However regular sugar appears to be by far and away the top sweetener used in Jerky processing, Brown Sugar would the second and I don’t really see any evidence of artificial sweeteners as a main sweetening agent.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

@jcflorida they need to be refrigerated unless you have a way to measure water activity and the pH of your meat. They might be “shelf stable” but without a way to test them it is not worth the danger of spoilage